In a perhaps telling twist, the most ancient of breeds I work with may have the least to choose from by way of written history. A breed that’s purported to have been around for thousands of years, sitting as Turkey does at the geographical cross roads of the world, that history might be quite busy and all but impossible to document anyway. Or perhaps, as a true land race breed, there is really very little that can be said with certainty; except the breed has been around almost as long as animal husbandry.
The Kangal vs Anatolian debate is agenda driven on all sides and frankly not very interesting to me. In a nutshell it seems that almost anything that came from turkey could get papers as an Anatolian, hence the wide range of phenotypes and temperaments available under that flag, I can assure you there are endless kangal-like dogs running the streets and country sides of Turkey…. They are not all kangals.
The most valid point the kangal people have is that “Kangal” is the term the Turks themselves use, and more importantly, the term “Anatolian” is not. So while there may be some window of contention among Turks as to what exactly is or isn’t a “pure Kangal.” There is no such debate regards an “Anatolian”…. because the term has no meaning amongst Turks ! Except perhaps amongst westernized Turks, who sometimes use it as an umbrella term to speak to all Turkish dogs, of which there are several distinct groups and much crossing.
The most valid question I’ve heard the Anatolian people pose is:
” Why would a shepherd care what color his dog was if it did it’s job ?”
And I have to admit I’ve no answer for that. I’ve always found those in dogs that were particularly concerned with a dab of white here or black there, be it Kangal, Boerboel, or Dogo, were not the people truly interested in function.
The reality, as I see it, is that the definition of an “Anatolian” was much looser in many regards, than that which is currently applied to defining Kangals. So, as is obvious to the eye, some dogs called “Anatolians” probably are Kangals, but many are not. And yet since they have been given the same flag they can, have, and continue to be mixed.
Given that we had the audacity to rename the breed I guess it should come as no surprise we didn’t seem too selective in what wore the flag Anatolian, allowing all manner of dogs from Turkey to be mixed with what ever Kangals were imported, under whatever name.
But The Kangal “community” is primarily composed of a most diss-agreable collection of control freaks, hippocrits, and mercenaries. A batch of old ladies who could not be further from the the men in Turkey who historically dealt in these dogs, in any, and every regard. The Kangal in America is largely in the strangle hold of hobby, novelty, show, breeders. Ranchers are not likely to pay the prices they ask, or humor the interrogations and conditions they impose on potential buyers. Which means the breed is very liable to be put on the fast track to selection pressure dementia
So, Let it be known then, I will beat anyone in America’s price on a kangal to a true working home, with real predator issues. Not novelty this or that, on a postage stamp estate that could be guarded by anything that barks. REAL STOCK, REAL PREDATORS, REAL ACREAGE; if you have those things, I want to be the guy that gets you a Kangal. And if you don’t have those things…….. I’ll probably beat anybody’s price anyway, cause the KDCA pissed me off, I’m gonna take a bite out their pie, and I’d personally not mind seeing the price come down to a level that their ilk don’t traffic in, and ranchers might.
As mastiffs go I believe the heart of an Argentine Dogo is unparalleled. These dogs are as unlikely to be deterred by pain as any close to their size. And that heart beats in an extremely athletic body, that can cover ground, in a sprint or all day. Steered by a nose that can track, and backed up by jaws as capable as any in the world of dogs. Truly an impressive combination of traits.
All of which, perhaps most remarkably, contained in a genuinely loving canine. This is the paradox those with no first hand experience may find difficult to comprehend. That a beast so foreboding, so capable, so potentially ferocious, a beast that will willingly go to it’s death in a fight; can be so….sweet.
But that’s really the word, they are loving dogs. Wonderful with children, true family dogs; affectionate titans, would be lap dogs. Naturally subordinate to their owners and generally not aggressive to towards people. To say much more is to stress the limits of generalizations; there are exceptions, and variation within any breed. And that which nurture brings to natures table, as in any breed, can produce dogs very dissimilar in behaviour.
General temperament:
The dogo is a paradox difficult to grasp without owning. Lovers and fighters both; as affectionate, patient, and nurturing with their people and puppies as dangerous to their prey or enemies. They are naturally territorial, like most dogs, and though many a walled compound is patrolled by Dogo’s in Argentina, they are not typically suspicious or unwelcoming of people if well socialized ( Although mine came from a breeder who liked Dogo’s that were suited to be protection dogs ). They do tend to be highly dog, and animal aggressive, despite the pack hunting rhetoric.
Energy level: 6-7
The more exercise the better they like to get tired, but don’t go nuts without it. You rarely see a pacer. But they do thrive with ample exercise.
Intelligence: 7-8
I think their generally a bright beast. Though I have found that the temperaments can get quirky, and I think that’s due more to inbreeding than anything else.
Biddability: 7
Relative to what….right ? relative to spitz types and LGD’s they are extremely biddable. Relative Boerboels…. perhaps less so… but not by a lot. The exception being you are not going to call a Dogo off of it’s prey, when they go, they’re gone. But in day to day matters I find them fairly obedient, excepting the occasions when prey drive kicks in.
Independence: 2-4
Not very, they want to be with their people, ideally in their laps. They never seem to get enough love, nor do they seem to tire of giving it. Unless there is something to hunt/fight.
Gravity: 7-8
Pretty high, lacking something to get after, they tend to stick right around their people fairly well.
Roam: 4-6
Not bad, and if it were not for the tendency to go hunt I’d give em a 3
Prey drive: 9
Their made to get after stuff, and it’s very difficult to keep them from doing so. it’s a definite uphill battle to keep them from going after other animals.
Dog Aggression: 8-9
Much understated by the dogo peddlers, but a very real issue. Despite the fact they are supposed to hunt in packs, the truth remains that doesn’t always go as planned.
Human Aggression: 5-7
This is a difficult one to address because the propensity for and the potential tenacity of are two different matters. I would say by nature they are not naturally man aggressive. I would also say if a Dogo does decide to go after a man, for whatever reason, it will not be easily deterred, not by physical pain.
The crossing of breeds is such a controversial issue it seems appropriate I spend some time addressing my perspective, in print, for the record. To the degree that creates some redundancy with sections like ” An overview, ” I hope you will endure. Given the assumption few will read the whole site, it’s more important that each post stand alone. At the very least I can cut and paste this bit on crosses as needed in my online travels, where the crossing of breeds creates endless hoo-hah.
But anyone in animal husbandry, and most genuine dog men, have known forever that there is a payoff to outside blood. Of late the fickle finger of dog fashion has stumbled on the practice. The extent and degree to which this crossing of breeds may be fad driven, there for short-lived, remains to be seen.
Personally I see it as a logical reaction to the pathetic state of purebreds. The problem then, and the only real limitation of the idea, remains the same. As all the dogs crossed, by definition, must be pulled from that same dubious pool. But while most anything would be better than more of the same purebred disaster, and while crossing does address many of the issues associated with inbreeding, it does not begin to address the greater void of a meaningful selection pressure.
Heterosis ( hybrid vigor ) is a scientifically proven reality that minimizes the likely hood of genetic disease and boosts over all health, vigor, even size. A magnification of the gains had by incorporating divergent lines within breed. That said, it is no magic bullet. Crossing breed lines won’t make two dumb dogs smart, nor two cowardly dogs brave. Garbage in will get you garbage out; albeit healthier, possibly more sound…garbage.
Another thing we know is the purebred lines must be kept as such; if not simply out of respect for the legacy of those breeds, then to fully maximize the benefits of crossing them. I personally intend to produce purebred dogs and purebred crosses. I do not see it as either or. I do not care to join any particular camp. I do my own thing.
And I have no interest in covert infusions to any pure breeds gene pool. Where registries have made the mental leap to realize that a closed registry is a genetic dead end, there are processes available to infuse new blood in a documented manner. Where a closed registry is the rule of law, so be it. A pure bred is a pure bred, and is registered accordingly. A cross is a cross; it should be registered as such, or not at all. And where that is the case, and none are miss-represented, the crosses pose no more threat to the purebred’s gene pool than a dog of another breed does. Nothing is lost; nothing is added.
A new and separate thing is created; it does not “pollute” the gene pool of the pure bred, the new cross is not a part of that pool. And the DNA of the dogs crossed is not somehow tainted by the experience. Both dogs can be bred within their own breeds next time around, unaffected.
Common sense?
One would think so. Apparently there is precious little of that commodity available amongst a large vocal sector of purebred enthusiasts. Not to be confused with real dog men, from whom I’ve yet to hear a concern with the practice beyond that of folks sneaking other breeds in unannounced. And that, even after announcing to their faces, that if I acquire a dog from them I may well cross it.
Most hardcore working people have long since jettisoned the closed registry model. Where results are the true endgame, results are all that matter. For example, the Belgian Malinois, which is what police and military use the world over, is allowed to have outside blood infused, a practice not uncommon in working circles where function takes precedent over form.
From the other purebred extreme, the show fancy, there is a tremendous amount of rather hysterical gibberish, which makes perfect sense if you look at the numbers because they are losing money to crosses hand over fist, as their function-less dogs are easily replaced by healthier, less expensive crosses. Many of those that have not, as yet, jumped ship and started crossing are in a veritable tizzy of bitterness.
“ You will ruin the breed”
“ You will pollute the gene pool”
“ They are just mutts”
“ You will create monsters”
“ You can’t have any idea what you’ll get”
“ They won’t be consistent”
Before I stoop to address those supposed concerns, let’s revisit the big picture. There is a recurring pattern for dogs, in America, and much of industrialized world. Breeds, virtually all of which were created to perform some task are increasingly bred for trophies or pets. The working traits are inadvertently lost, or often even selected against. One could go down the whole list of AKC dogs, and almost all of them, even within the breeds classified as “ working dogs,” are no longer competitive as such.
They may still harbor some instincts, some residual tendencies; your AKC retriever will bring your tennis ball, your AKC collie may run circles around your children. But the dogs and their drives and abilities become watered down as sure as the majority of the dog buying public just want pets.
If one really needs a working collie, retriever, livestock guardian, watchdog, etc, then one would do well to hunt out the small sub-culture of folks that are still actively selecting for working ability; chances are they belong to a different registry.
The working ability is one of the first things to go, if it’s not selected for. And often times, the drive to work is a problem for a pet with nothing to do anyway. But that’s just the beginning of the end. Once work is eliminated as a selection pressure, the field is defaulted to the show fancy and the random convenience breeding of the public, a duo no breed can withstand for long.
So, to the assertion
“ You will ruin the breed”
I say
If were talking AKC or dog fancy, chances are that’s already been done. Can an English bulldog be any more ruined? Can an AKC German shepherd, Dane, English mastiff, be made any more of a cartoon. One could go down the whole list of AKC animals and not find much that has not long since been ruined to one degree or another.
To
“ You will pollute the gene pool”
I say not. No dishonesty here, it’s all up front, sneaking nothing in.
“ They are just mutts”
This is a matter of semantics. The dictionary provides a rather useless definition of the term “mutt” as a dog of “impure” origin. As if dogs where ever pure ? As if they stayed behind in the garden. A mutt, in my world, is a mystery, a dog of uncertain make up, unknown origin or component. A cross of known pure breeds is anything but.
“ You’ll create monsters”
I call this the ” Frankenstein paradigm.” It’s hardly more logical than the premise of the film. Nor more reasonable than assuming all the good traits will magically merge in the most desired fashion… which we could call the “cross peddler paradigm,” but they both call into question the next fear on the list
“ You have no idea what you’ll get “
Unless we believe the ” Frankenstein” or the ” cross peddler” paradigms. Again, I’ve found it to be a fairly predictable splitting of the differences as regards the more complex matters such as temperament or overall physical structure… in F1’s anyway. Simpler matters determined by fewer genes like coat type and color, eye color, can be predicted in relative probability by people who are familiar with genetic patterns of dominant and recessive genes, or the software they produce.
“ They will never be consistent”
Actually I wish that was more true. Consistency is overrated in my opinion. People have different wants, and needs, as well as visual preferences. Thus far I’ve found the variation within f1 litters to be not dissimilar to that within purebred litters as regards temperament and over all structure. I’d like to see more variation. Where is it written, aside from somebody’s silly ass standard, that we want cookie cutter dogs?
Athletes who compete in the same extremely specialized sports do come in a variety of shapes, proportions and temperaments. What remains constant is the trade off between size and speed, power and endurance. It is not uncommon to see a much taller rangier man compete against a far shorter more powerfully built man in any number of contests, even when weights are mandated to within a few pounds. Nor is it uncommon for those two men to set about that competition in drastically different manners, reflecting extremely different temperaments. Cookie cutters have no relevancy in the real world; that is largely the residual nonsense of breeding to a visual standard, in my estimation.
But perhaps the most intriguing potential gain of crossing lines, for me, is the amount of change it allows in one generation. Much ground can be covered; broad-brush strokes can be made. It is not the business of baby steps, and in all honesty I have always been more fascinated with the possibilities, and even the unknowns, of a cross.
The truth is there are far too many breeds that interest me to limit myself to one or even two, so I have no intention of doing so. But I have, of necessity, spent years narrowing my choices to a manageable number of purebreds; Boerboels, Dogos, Kangals. And and a couple basic long term divisions for crosses; low prey drive ( the Olympic Farm dogs ) and high, ( the Olympic Road dogs ).
Time, or exceptional dogs of other breeds, may dictate new directions. But for the last several years these are the breeds I’ve been focused on, these I breed and sell pure, these breeds have full descriptions of their own in their respective sections from which a person can make reasonable assumptions as to what they might bring in a cross.
But in this section I want to talk a bit about these breeds, and other I use, like Dane and Akita, as components. I want to address their traits, as ingredients, as they relate to each other; as relates to crossing them.
For the naysayers we have already addressed an essay DEFENDING THE CROSS what follows is written more for the open, or even like minded.
And I want to talk about the major divisions, as I see them, in our dogs.
Prey drive
This is the big one for me; it’s the Mason-Dixon line for anyone with livestock really. Dog’s bred to guard and protect vs. dogs bred to hunt, to get after stuff. Dog’s that can be trusted with stock and dog’s that ….. well really can’t. That’s the primary difference between a road dog and farm dog for me. They are all territorial, they will all protect the home turf from unwanted visitors.
Independence
This perhaps the broadest division but the ramifications of it are myriad. The majority of the breeds I work with are not very independent, and as a result are relatively biddable. The Boerboel, Dogo, Dane these are all yes men dogs to one degree or another; relative to a Kangal anyway, who may well obey, may well be quicker to realize what’s wanted even, but definitely thinks for itself. Or say an Akita who is as independent as anything I’ve owned, and high prey drive. So much so that all I can even keep around anymore is a half Akita.
Heart: is the first thing I think when I think Dogo. When you look at their heads you know where the Heart comes from. But in a dogo that heart beats in long, tall, athletic body. These are Hunting dogs with a lot of fight, get after it, stay at it dogs. These are not dogs easily discouraged from a struggle once they engage, many will go to the death. The Dogo is a dog of temperamental extremes; both an incredibly sweet, tolerant, loving family dog and a dog capable of often suicidal tenacity. This paradox is hard to comprehend, hard not to respect, and for me impossible to resist. In a nutshell a Dogo is a dog with balls, in a world where most breeds are born half neutered any more.
Toughness: A delicate distinction I’m making from heart here, the pain tolerance I’ve experienced in these dogs is pretty impressive, they’re scrappers.
Athleticism: Big time, these dogs are extremely athletic for their size
Prey drive: very high, if that might present a problem, you probably don’t want much Dogo in the mix
Dog Aggression: Very high also, despite the ” pack hunter” lip service
Intelligence: I find them to be quite sharp really, if a bit quirky at times
Size: it’s a touchy subject in Dogos, but I like the big ones, the longer taller ones, because otherwise they start looking very much like pit bulls. So I’ve made it a point to have and breed dogs on the high side of the range, and will continue to do so.
Health: The Dogo is quite possibly the canine poster child of inadequate genetic foundation ( too few, too closely related…the opposite of a landrace breed ). This may seem counter intuitive to those who know a little of Dogo history (the breed was created by mixing a variety of breeds ) and it may have been had the Martinez brother’s plans not been impacted by their respective fates. The plans of mice and men often do go astray, and so it was that the Martinez brothers were forced to “reconstruct “ from a far smaller base then they intended. As a result Dogos suffer from a a variety of issues associated with inbreeding. Various auto-immune issues; most often evidenced in skin problems, diminished fertility, and more. Not to mention issues associated with being all white; sunburn, deafness, etc. As such they are prime candidates to benefit from a cross, so long as it’s not to a white dog, and they bring much to the table.
Gravity: The Boerboel, first and fore most, is sticky. A family dog, great with kids and will become their new shadow out of the crate and as long as it lives. They will wait outside whatever door you last went in, often sleep there in the rain rather than seek shelter. They will move with you all day long if your work keeps you moving. They are born to stay by your side, like secret service agents.
Biddability: The second thing I think of is biddable, they are by your side they are looking to your eyes to see what you want. Thirdly they bring a moderate amount of
Minimal prey drive: They are manageable around stock, it’s no uphill battle to get them to refrain from killing your other critters.
Protective: This what their supposed to be all about…that’s job one. They should be wary/suspicious of strangers, and confident enough to want to get between them and you.
Coats: Short, and well suited to hot sunny climates, they also do fine outdoors in moderate cold.
Size: everybody lies; I’d say 130 was probably a generous “average size male” probably 100 for a bitch. Although they do vary and it’s not uncommon to get 160 lb males…. and some as large as 180 or more, it does become a challenge to find one that size that still moves well.
A guardian breed; family, farm, livestock. A real boerboel might be the perfect farm dog for me, might be all I needed, might be for a lot of people. The hard part is finding one that lives up to the superbly orchestrated Afrikaner marketing. And then finding two. As a component, one is all we need, and you can see how they might be useful to mix with many a breed.
Born and bred to protect livestock. The Kangal is my livestock guardian of choice. Also the only one in the final four that brings extreme cold weather tolerance, without the extreme shaggy often problematic coats of many of the livestock guardians. Or for that matter any degree of independence. I also expect a healthy dose of overall health and heartiness, as the Turks are historically less inclined to baby their dogs. Generally better hips than all the “mastiffs” ( penn hip .45) And excellent vision, for use on the endless vistas of Turkeys rolling sheep country. Little to no prey drive and a strong desire to protect everything in their domain from creatures that don’t belong, two or four legged.
Temperamentally they are possessed of some combination of nurturing or absence of prey drive sufficient that they can be trusted left alone with livestock. They watch, they guard, they protect. They don’t need to be in your lap. They don’t need your approval, and they are not inclined to work to hard to get it.
Intelligence: I find them to be the smartest dogs here, not yes men, but thinking to be sure.
Independence factor is high. A double edged sword to be sure, and perhaps the most significant difference in Dog temperament. It is a thing of pros and cons. Having raised Akitas ( super independent ) and Boerboels ( super biddable to the point of being needy ) I do find both extremes annoying at times, and helpful at others; but as the other three in the the final four are basically biddable, the Kangal will be a much needed infusion of independent thinking and spirit that I look forward to mixing to suit.
Health: To the extant the kangal is a sort of land race breed I hope they will bring a needed helping of overall health, hardiness and temperamental soundness that is often lacking in the breeds composed of more limited foundation stock. They do tend to live a very long time.
Cold weather tolerance: Can not underestimate that. The other three breeds of my choosing, most bully breeds for that matter, tend to be short coated dogs that can only tolerate so much cold. And what good is any form of watch dog if it’s curled up shivering in the bowels of it’s shelter throughout winter ? If I’m on a road trip in winter I want a dog to be comfortable sleeping under the truck, not one whining to be in the back with me. The Sivas region and much of Eastern Turkey is bitter cold, and wicked hot, these dogs, historically, were anything but pampered.
Nurturing: I believe that this is at the heart of a livestock guardian, an instinct to care for and protect, that has been selected for and made prominent over the prey drive that exists to some extent in all dogs. For anyone on a farm ( not to mention mad scientist dog breeders on farms ) this modulation of the prey drive is huge, this is critical. And I believe this basic temperament is easily shifted towards human family, cats; you name it. You raise em with it, they won’t kill it; they will protect it. Having had more than than my share of dogs for whom not killing is not natural, I very much appreciate it.
Eyesight: I can’t prove it, but I spent a month exploring the rolling vistas of Turkey and I’ve got to believe that if ever a breed would evolve good eye sight it would be one expected to guard livestock in that kind of terrain. Mine clearly has amazing vision, I no longer assume him to be barking pointlessly….I just look through a scope. His vision is hands down superior to any other dog on the farm.
Length/scale : These dogs are long and tall, thirty plus inches at the shoulder yet built to cover ground if needed, athletic, not clunky not too heavy.
The Great Dane is a stretch for me I’ll admit. It’s the bodies though that get me, I like the scale. I like a tall leggy dog, a dog that covers all sorts of ground. Granted the temperaments and smarts that I’ve found, leave a lot to be desired, but I’m going to literally scour the earth for a Dane with enough smarts, nerve, and guts to warrant feeding. I believe there must still be some out there, needle in the haystack of dopey Disney Danes though a good one most certainly is
Good with kids: On thing they have in common with the rest of the final four is they are truly good with children, true family dogs. I am hoping that I can find Danes as close to Danes of old to begin with but with the addition of working molosser lines, I anticipate producing something similar to a Dane of lore, in body and in spirit.
Dog aggression nil: Many people may find a Dogo or a hard Boerboel a little much to handle, more dog aggression than is ideal, or more liability than they want. The Dane cross, at least until I find hard Dane, is a sure way to water that down; without needing the watered down Dogos or Boerboels.
Good Hips: Another point that bears mention regards the contribution I expect the Dane to make is that for all their size they do tend to have good hips, better in fact than any mastiff. (See the pennhip scores) At present I have a gorgeous Dane with better movement than any dog I’ve seen anywhere close to his size with a pennhip .21 .24. …. ah if he only had a brain…. and a heart… he might leave a mark.
Coat: short
Size: 32, 33, 34, 35 inches… at the shoulder, scale baby, scale.
