Aka “The olympic Schizophrenic”
Lefty below hanging out with a newborn goat kid,
Lefty’s photo album
Lefty’s fellow KANGO litter-mates album
So, now that we’ve done it, we’ve thanked the president of the the Kangal Dog Club of America for his inspiration, and expressed our heart felt disregard to the Kangal and Dogo purists everywhere… what did we get ?
Mostly I’d say what we got was pleasant surprises. I kept one, “Lefty,” but I’ve gotten quite a bit of feedback from owners of his litter mates and the general picture is pretty consistent. Somehow in crossing two very serious, pretty hard, and relatively aggressive dogs….. we actually got something softer than either parent in many regards.
Who’d a thunk it ? Experienced dog crossers might. I’ve heard similar refrains with a whole slew of bandog/pit dog type crosses. It’s more art than science to be sure, but anecdotes do form patterns in numbers
But I’m going to concentrate on Lefty, because that’s what I know, first hand. And the biggest and most pleasant surprise with him is that he can be trusted as a stock guardian. I didn’t bill any of these dogs as such, nor would I, and I do crosses better suited to that end. But the fact remains with no particular training he has learned to leave my critters alone. That is a thing a Dogo really can’t be taught. If Lefty were one of Mendel’s Peas we might be tempted to say a Dogos prey drive is recessive to a Kangals lack there of, of course it’s not that simple. But for practical purposes it might as well be.
The other big surprise is he demonstrates a minimal amount of dog aggression. Given the relatively high amount of that in both parent breeds I was frankly a little concerned. Turns out Lefty, and from what I hear, his litter mates, are relative gentlemen of the Canine world. Those are the big surprises.
Here’s what’s not. He roams more than a Dogo, less than a Kangal. His coat is in between. His independence level is in between. His biddability seems to oscillate between both extremes. And he’s extremely smart, like both parents, even if his thinking is not quite like either, he is definitely a thinking dog.
Lefty is very, very good with all things small; children, puppies, goats kids etc. He seems to have gotten the protective thing from the kangal along with a healthy dose of self awareness ( won’t lick a toddler over like a dogo ) and the nurturing, licking tendency of the Dogo. I’ve witnessed Lefty dutifully clean the wound of a male dog “Mandela” between growls, as if to say hold still while I clean this, or I’m gonna kick your a$$.
Lefty does exhibit prey drive, more so than his Kangal father, in fact he goes a little crazy if I don’t let him get after anything that he suspects is lurking. Bottom line, he’s working for me here on and around my land, and he’s great out in public, I couldn’t ask for a whole lot more.
Physically he’s a very tall athletic looking dog, 30 plus inches at the shoulder, but not too heavy, with a beautiful light footed floating movement that would be better filmed then typed at ( video is on the to do list ) When people see him they think he’s some sort of Dane cross, and perhaps the best thing about him is… they’re wrong. Though he’s on the scale of a Dane, just minus any of the associated pitfalls
Legend:
* = Have done it, click cross for photos and info
? = Would like to do it, please contact if interested.
! = Will do it, get your deposit in early.
$ = Available now, or shortly
F1:
BOERBOEL X KANGAL * ! $
AKA The Olympic KANGOEL
”TALLWATER” bred to ” OZ ” 5/20/11
BOERBOEL X DANE *
DANE X DOGO *
AKA The Olympic DANGO
This will be a regular on the menu, but I’d like to try it with some different individuals
DOGO X AKITA *
I’ve done this, there was much to like, good hunting dog, but discontinued just the same.
DOGO X BOERBOEL* ?
AKA The Olympic DOBO
I’ve done it before, would like to do it again, with a female dogo x male boerboel, talk to me.
KANGAL X DOGO * $
AKA the Olympic KANGO
We did it again pups due late 7/11 click “Lefty” to learn and see more of my keeper from the first litter
Three Ways ( Purebred x f1 )
BOERBOEL X DOGO/DANE * ?
Might try this with Mandela and Tyra Banks, when Mandela is a little older.
This cross might be off the charts physically, and should be extremely big, athletic, and biddable, talk to me.
BOERBOEL X KANGAL/DOGO ?
This cross using “Lefty and Agressa”, effectively combines my three smartest dogs, and I expect, will produce some very interesting pups. See current litters to get a peek.
Four Ways ( f1 x f1 )
“Quatro” KANGAL/BOERBOEL X DANE/DOGO *
PUREBRED CROSSES
The crossing of breeds is such a controversial issue it seems appropriate I spend some time addressing my perspective, in print, for the record. To the degree that creates some redundancy with sections like ” An overview, ” I hope you will endure. Given the assumption few will read the whole site, it’s more important that each post stand alone. At the very least I can cut and paste this bit on crosses as needed in my online travels, where the crossing of breeds creates endless hoo-hah.
But anyone in animal husbandry, and most genuine dog men, have known forever that there is a payoff to outside blood. Of late the fickle finger of dog fashion has stumbled on the practice. The extent and degree to which this crossing of breeds may be fad driven, there for short-lived, remains to be seen.
Personally I see it as a logical reaction to the pathetic state of purebreds. The problem then, and the only real limitation of the idea, remains the same. As all the dogs crossed, by definition, must be pulled from that same dubious pool. But while most anything would be better than more of the same purebred disaster, and while crossing does address many of the issues associated with inbreeding, it does not begin to address the greater void of a meaningful selection pressure.
Heterosis ( hybrid vigor ) is a scientifically proven reality that minimizes the likely hood of genetic disease and boosts over all health, vigor, even size. A magnification of the gains had by incorporating divergent lines within breed. That said, it is no magic bullet. Crossing breed lines won’t make two dumb dogs smart, nor two cowardly dogs brave. Garbage in will get you garbage out; albeit healthier, possibly more sound…garbage.
Another thing we know is the purebred lines must be kept as such; if not simply out of respect for the legacy of those breeds, then to fully maximize the benefits of crossing them. I personally intend to produce purebred dogs and purebred crosses. I do not see it as either or. I do not care to join any particular camp. I do my own thing.
And I have no interest in covert infusions to any pure breeds gene pool. Where registries have made the mental leap to realize that a closed registry is a genetic dead end, there are processes available to infuse new blood in a documented manner. Where a closed registry is the rule of law, so be it. A pure bred is a pure bred, and is registered accordingly. A cross is a cross; it should be registered as such, or not at all. And where that is the case, and none are miss-represented, the crosses pose no more threat to the purebred’s gene pool than a dog of another breed does. Nothing is lost; nothing is added.
A new and separate thing is created; it does not “pollute” the gene pool of the pure bred, the new cross is not a part of that pool. And the DNA of the dogs crossed is not somehow tainted by the experience. Both dogs can be bred within their own breeds next time around, unaffected.
Common sense?
One would think so. Apparently there is precious little of that commodity available amongst a large vocal sector of purebred enthusiasts. Not to be confused with real dog men, from whom I’ve yet to hear a concern with the practice beyond that of folks sneaking other breeds in unannounced. And that, even after announcing to their faces, that if I acquire a dog from them I may well cross it.
Most hardcore working people have long since jettisoned the closed registry model. Where results are the true endgame, results are all that matter. For example, the Belgian Malinois, which is what police and military use the world over, is allowed to have outside blood infused, a practice not uncommon in working circles where function takes precedent over form.
From the other purebred extreme, the show fancy, there is a tremendous amount of rather hysterical gibberish, which makes perfect sense if you look at the numbers because they are losing money to crosses hand over fist, as their function-less dogs are easily replaced by healthier, less expensive crosses. Many of those that have not, as yet, jumped ship and started crossing are in a veritable tizzy of bitterness.
“ You will ruin the breed”
“ You will pollute the gene pool”
“ They are just mutts”
“ You will create monsters”
“ You can’t have any idea what you’ll get”
“ They won’t be consistent”
Before I stoop to address those supposed concerns, let’s revisit the big picture. There is a recurring pattern for dogs, in America, and much of industrialized world. Breeds, virtually all of which were created to perform some task are increasingly bred for trophies or pets. The working traits are inadvertently lost, or often even selected against. One could go down the whole list of AKC dogs, and almost all of them, even within the breeds classified as “ working dogs,” are no longer competitive as such.
They may still harbor some instincts, some residual tendencies; your AKC retriever will bring your tennis ball, your AKC collie may run circles around your children. But the dogs and their drives and abilities become watered down as sure as the majority of the dog buying public just want pets.
If one really needs a working collie, retriever, livestock guardian, watchdog, etc, then one would do well to hunt out the small sub-culture of folks that are still actively selecting for working ability; chances are they belong to a different registry.
The working ability is one of the first things to go, if it’s not selected for. And often times, the drive to work is a problem for a pet with nothing to do anyway. But that’s just the beginning of the end. Once work is eliminated as a selection pressure, the field is defaulted to the show fancy and the random convenience breeding of the public, a duo no breed can withstand for long.
So, to the assertion
“ You will ruin the breed”
I say
If were talking AKC or dog fancy, chances are that’s already been done. Can an English bulldog be any more ruined? Can an AKC German shepherd, Dane, English mastiff, be made any more of a cartoon. One could go down the whole list of AKC animals and not find much that has not long since been ruined to one degree or another.
To
“ You will pollute the gene pool”
I say not. No dishonesty here, it’s all up front, sneaking nothing in.
“ They are just mutts”
This is a matter of semantics. The dictionary provides a rather useless definition of the term “mutt” as a dog of “impure” origin. As if dogs where ever pure ? As if they stayed behind in the garden. A mutt, in my world, is a mystery, a dog of uncertain make up, unknown origin or component. A cross of known pure breeds is anything but.
“ You’ll create monsters”
I call this the ” Frankenstein paradigm.” It’s hardly more logical than the premise of the film. Nor more reasonable than assuming all the good traits will magically merge in the most desired fashion… which we could call the “cross peddler paradigm,” but they both call into question the next fear on the list
“ You have no idea what you’ll get “
Unless we believe the ” Frankenstein” or the ” cross peddler” paradigms. Again, I’ve found it to be a fairly predictable splitting of the differences as regards the more complex matters such as temperament or overall physical structure… in F1’s anyway. Simpler matters determined by fewer genes like coat type and color, eye color, can be predicted in relative probability by people who are familiar with genetic patterns of dominant and recessive genes, or the software they produce.
“ They will never be consistent”
Actually I wish that was more true. Consistency is overrated in my opinion. People have different wants, and needs, as well as visual preferences. Thus far I’ve found the variation within f1 litters to be not dissimilar to that within purebred litters as regards temperament and over all structure. I’d like to see more variation. Where is it written, aside from somebody’s silly ass standard, that we want cookie cutter dogs?
Athletes who compete in the same extremely specialized sports do come in a variety of shapes, proportions and temperaments. What remains constant is the trade off between size and speed, power and endurance. It is not uncommon to see a much taller rangier man compete against a far shorter more powerfully built man in any number of contests, even when weights are mandated to within a few pounds. Nor is it uncommon for those two men to set about that competition in drastically different manners, reflecting extremely different temperaments. Cookie cutters have no relevancy in the real world; that is largely the residual nonsense of breeding to a visual standard, in my estimation.
But perhaps the most intriguing potential gain of crossing lines, for me, is the amount of change it allows in one generation. Much ground can be covered; broad-brush strokes can be made. It is not the business of baby steps, and in all honesty I have always been more fascinated with the possibilities, and even the unknowns, of a cross.
Livestock Guardian X Family/Farm Guardian
AKA
The Olympic Farm dog
Ghengis Afrikracker: my Kangal x Boerboel keeper from Oz and Tallwater
click the link above to see an example of this cross in Ghengis.
This is a cross I expect to be a regular on the Olympicdogs Menu. A pure livestock guardian may be best for some applications involving vast expanses of terrain, bitter cold, huge flocks, long periods of isolation; and not subject to such concerns as, neighbors, imperfect fences, etc. But the need for a more versatile, less independent, more obedient, stock guardian is an obvious one on many a smaller Ranch or Farm.
This cross is meant to be an all purpose guardian, as good with children as livestock, as inclined to obey as to protect; as suited to being in the home as out. And equally inclined to stick with livestock or children as the moment may require. A dog with enough coat to be comfortable outside in winter, enough sense to be welcome indoors with guests, and enough smarts and spine to meet challenges in a variety of circumstance.
That would be pretty ideal for me. It is meant to be the type of dog I would have, if I could only have one; that is what I’m shooting for. And having done it already I now also have the ability to go back either direction, as opposed to just splitting the difference.
The limiting factor in the usefulness and flexibility of a Kangal, as with most livestock guardian dogs, is that they are incurably and genetically independent. Independent thinkers, independent operators. Consider them the opposite of biddable. They don’t need your affection, nor are they inclined to jump through hoops or become annoying trying to get it. But they are also more inclined to roam, to ” expand the territory” they call home, and to simply disobey, than many who traffic in them are want to admit. Wicked smart dogs mind you, just not yes men.
The boerboel is very nearly exactly the opposite in several key aspects. A good Boerboel is extremely biddable. And everyone I’ve come across is as devoid of roam, as inclined to stick by its people, as any example of any breed I’ve known. Personally, I find they can be almost annoying in their desire to please and have one’s attention, needy really, under your feet, perpetually waiting or positioning themselves for the next command or pat on the head.
And this worship of owner is also their limiting factor as livestock guardians, as they are unlikely to follow herbivores if it takes them farther away from their people ( might not be a problem if they can see everything they need to guard from your porch ) So on those temperamental scores we split the difference in a Kangal x Boerboel cross.
Physically I believe they complement one another as well. The Boerboel, like most mastiffs, suffers from eye problems ( entropion and ectropion ) And, having observed so many fail to differentiate humans at relatively close range without a cooperative wind, I believe many do not see particularly well even when they don’t have extreme eye problems.
Anyone that’s had the pleasure to travel Turkey will agree the rolling vistas in the herding country are vast and the flock guardians vary vigilant in their scanning. I’m amazed at what my kangal can see! His vision is clearly superior to any of the other dogs. So that is an area that the Kangal can help the Boerboel.
The mean Penn hip scores on the Kangal ( .45 ) suggest better hips than that of the boerboel mean ( .59 roughly the same as all mastiffs ) another area the Kangal might improve the Boerboel. And my Kangal male has .28 .28 which would help most any mastiff.
But they also share common ground. The Boerboel literally translated from the Afrikaans means “big farm dog” and I believe they have been not only to tolerate, but guard livestock. Conditioned properly they can be left alone with stock. All of mine can be trusted left alone with goats, not to mention newborn goat kids,
And let there be no doubt a boerboel will defend against any predator foolish enough to trespass, much less threaten stock in their presence. In fact the only shortcoming they have as livestock guardians, in my eyes, is that their want and need to please and be with their humans ( that which makes them biddable ) also renders it unlikely they will ever choose to accompany livestock if it takes them farther away from their humans.
What I have observed in an f1 Kangal x Boerboel cross, unsurprisingly enough, is a dog that splits these differences. My keepers from the first Kangal x Boerboel litter; GHENGIS AFRIKRACKER and SINEAD, seem equally inclined to stay with stock or wait by the door. It really just depends what inclosure they are in. Both are very good with stock. Neither as needy as a Boerboel, nor as independent as a Kangal. Beyond that it’s a bit early to speak to their adult temperaments yet as they are both just over a year as I type.
In any event, as with any f1 cross, there is always the possibility of breeding back to one breed or the other until one gets the desired result. If I was a betting man, I’d anticipate a 3/4 quarter boerboel, 1/4 Kangal would be about perfect as and all around farm and livestock guardian for me. But no two farms are alike, no two owners have the same ideal dog in mind, and THAT is the beauty of crossing the lines and breeding to suit.
